斯皮尔伯格谈冷战及新片 敌人没有特定面孔

For his new film, “Bridge of Spies,” the director Steven Spielberg returned to what for him has been an inexhaustible source of inspiration: American history. His hero this time isn’t a totemic national figure, as in his 2012 film, “Lincoln,” but instead is someone whose name is barely known: James Donovan, played by Tom Hanks. A Bronx-born lawyer who defended a vilified Soviet spy, Rudolf Abel (Mark Rylance), during the Cold War’s peak, Mr. Donovan later negotiated to swap Mr. Abel for both the American U-2 spy plane pilot Francis Gary Powers, who had been shot down over the Soviet Union, and an American graduate student who had been detained in East Berlin.

导演史蒂夫·斯皮尔伯格(Steven Spielberg)在《间谍之桥》(Bridge of Spies)中回归了对他来说永不枯竭的灵感源泉：美国历史。这一次，他的主人公不再如2012年的《林肯》(Lincoln)那样，是一位图腾般的国民英雄，而是一个名字几乎不为世人所知的小人物：詹姆斯·多诺万(James Donovan)，由汤姆·汉克斯(Tom Hanks)饰演。此人是出生于布朗克斯的律师，在冷战高潮期间，为被指控为苏联间谍的鲁道夫·阿贝尔（Rudolf Abel，马克·李朗斯[Mark Rylance] 饰演）担任辩护律师。多诺万后来参与协商，用阿贝尔同苏联交换在苏联上空被击落的U-2侦察机的飞行员弗朗西斯·加里·鲍尔斯( Francis Gary Powers)，还有一名被东柏林羁押的美国大学生。

Mr. Spielberg — an engaged, thoughtful and kindly presence — sat down in TriBeCa recently to talk about how the post-9/11 world informs his new film, what Hollywood could be doing for women and minorities and why he feels he was born decades too late. Here are excerpts from the conversation:

斯皮尔伯格一直是个忙碌、有思想而友好的人，最近，他在翠贝卡电影节谈起后9-11的世界是如何影响了他的新电影，好莱坞能为女性和少数族裔做些什么，以及他为什么觉得自己晚生了几十年。下面是经过节选的对话。

Q. Did you see commonalities with “Bridge of Spies” and “Lincoln” in terms of the story lines?

问：就情节而言，你觉得《间谍之桥》和《林肯》有什么相似之处？

A. Both men are highly principled, and both men basically have a mission. Lincoln’s mission was going to change the way we look at each other, and Donovan’s mission was to basically bring somebody home. In a sense, Lincoln and Donovan are uncompromising figures in history, one completely obscure and the other almost ineffably famous.

答：两个男主人公都非常有原则，基本上，都有一个使命。林肯的使命是改变我们看待彼此的方式，多诺万的使命基本上是送某人回家。在某种意义上，林肯和多诺万都是历史上毫不妥协的角色，不过一个默默无闻，另一个家喻户晓。

Donovan was especially resolute in the idea that this man deserves every defense. Is there nostalgia here to a kind of belief and principle? I was thinking of prisoners in Guantánamo. Was that in your mind when you were making the film?

问：多诺万极度坚持这个男人值得全力为之辩护。这是对信仰和原则的一种怀旧吗？我联想起关塔那摩的囚犯，拍电影的时候，你想到这个问题了吗？

So many things were in my mind in the contemporary world. Drone missions. Guantánamo Bay. Cyberhacking, because cyberhacking is a form of spying. At the very beginning of technological spycraft in the late ’50s, with the U-2 overflights, our fear was that the Sputnik was a spy satellite, which it turned out of course not to be, and there was also great suspicion and fear of nuclear holocaust. I grew up in that era. The stakes were very, very high. And yet today, there is much more dread and fear of who’s looking over our shoulders. There was a specific enemy, the Soviet Union, in the 1950s and ’60s. Today we don’t know our enemy. The enemy doesn’t have a specific face.

答：关于当代世界，我想过太多问题。无人机轰炸、关塔那摩湾、电脑黑客——因为电脑黑客也是一种间谍形式。20世纪50年代末，技术间谍手段刚刚兴起，U-2飞机可以飞越领空，我们担心苏联人造卫星是间谍卫星，最后发现它根本不是，对核末日的猜疑和恐惧也是甚嚣尘上。我成长在那个时代。风险重重。然而如今却有了愈来愈多的恐惧，担心别人会严密监视我们。五六十年代，苏联是明明白白的敌人。如今我们根本不知道自己的敌人是谁。敌人根本就没有特定的面孔。

For you, is there solace looking at heroic people in history? Is it a comfort compaRed with what’s happening in the world now?

问：对你来说，历史上的英雄人物是一种安慰吗？把历史和如今的世界对照让你觉得安心吗？

Here’s the thing. It’s a little harder today. Donovan could work in tremendous secrecy at a time when there was no social media. Today it’d be a lot harder to find a man that would stand up for his principles and suffer the slings and arrows of the haters on social media. Donovan had it bad: They shot a bullet through the window of his apartment in the late ’50s. Imagine the amount of hurt that would have been brought to bear on Donovan’s family had this entire incident occurred in this day and age.

答：是这样。如今的岁月有一些艰难。在没有社交媒体的年代，多诺万可以在高度保密的状态下工作。如今的年代，要找到一个既坚持原则，同时又能抵御社交媒体上的喷子们暴风骤雨的怒骂，实在是难上加难。多诺万遇到过坏事，50年代末，有人冲着他公寓的窗子开了一枪。想想吧，如果这种事发生在今天，多诺万的家人要承受多少伤害。

How did you find out about this story?

问：你是怎么找到这个故事的？

A British playwright named Matt Charman presented me with this incredible story about the spy swap. I’m a big fan of the spy genre. Even though this film was more of an intellectual spy drama, a little more about the art of negotiation and conversation, there was still spycraft that really got me excited. I’m a huge fan of “The Quiller Memorandum,” “The Ipcress File,” The Spy Who Came In From the Cold.” Even “Our Man Flint,” “Dr. No,” and “FromRussia With Love.”

答：一个名叫马特·查曼(Matt Charman)的英国编剧给我看了这个精彩的交换间谍的故事。我非常迷恋间谍片。虽然这部电影其实主要是部智力间谍情节剧，关于谈判与对话艺术的内容更多些，不过其中仍然有些间谍技巧让我非常兴奋。我特别喜欢的间谍片有《谍海群英会》(The Quiller Memorandum)、《伊普克雷斯档案》(The Ipcress File)、《柏林谍影》(The Spy Who Came In From the Cold)、就连《弗林特》(Our Man Flint)、《007之诺博士》(Dr. No)、和《007之俄罗斯之恋》(FromRussia With Love)也喜欢。

I’m going to jump out to some general queries. In terms of the film industry, do you feel it’s in a healthy state?

问：我要抛出一些比较泛的问题了。你觉得当今的电影工业处在一个健康状态吗？

The film business has always been competitive with television, and in the early age of television, some of the greatest writers worked in television. Paddy Chayefsky, Stirling Silliphant, Rod Serling. Then television became very formulaic. But something has happened in the last seven or eight years. Some of the greatest writing today is for television. Look at series like “Transparent,” “Bloodline,” “Wolf Hall” and “Downton Abbey.” A wonderful series I’m hooked on, “Homeland.”

答：电影工业总在和电视业竞争。在电视的早期岁月，有一些最好的作者为它服务。比如帕迪·查耶夫斯基(Paddy Chayefsky)、斯特林·西里芬特(Stirling Silliphant)、罗德·瑟林(Rod Serling)。然后电视业开始变得非常俗套。但在过去七八年间，有些事情发生了。如今，有些最好的作者又开始为电视写作。看看《透明家庭》(Transparent)、《至亲血统》(Bloodline)、《狼厅》(Wolf Hall)、《唐顿庄园》(Downton Abbey)这些电视剧吧。我特别迷恋的一部剧就是《国土安全》(Homeland)。

Television has allowed the audience to take bigger risks on where they’re spending money when they go to the movies. Because if they can get something like that in a movie theater, where that particular story is only playing in a movie theater, it might get more people out to the movies.

电视让观众在花钱去电影院的时候承担更大的风险。如果他们能在影院看到这样的东西，如果特定的故事只在影院放映，这样可能就会吸引愈来愈多的人去看电影了。

So the filmmakers can take more of a risk?

问：所以电影人可以更冒险？

Yes, the studios can take more of a risk and allow filmmakers to tell stories that are self-contained and don’t even promise a sequel. I think television has helped the independent cinema and that the independent cinema has inspired long-form television. This is the second golden age of television, absolutely.

答：是的，电影公司可以更冒险，让电影人讲述更独立完整的故事，甚至不承诺做续集。我觉得电视对独立电影有帮助，独立电影也在启发长篇电视。这绝对是电视的第二个黄金时代。

Women’s point of view has been a huge topic lately. Do you feel someone in your position has a responsibility to cultivate young women filmmakers?

问：女性视点是最近的重大议题。你觉得处在你位置上的人有责任扶植年轻女性电影人吗？

I’ve cultivated women in film ever since I decided to make my secretary my producer and form my company, Amblin. I’m much more comfortable in the company of women. I’m talking about women in creative capacities, not administrative. The first movie I ever greenlit for DreamWorks was a film called “The Peacemaker,” and Mimi Leder directed it. Women are very much in executive positions all over the film industry today — the head of Universal, head of Fox 2000. The former head of Sony. What I don’t understand is the lack of diversity and color in the executive ranks of motion-picture companies, and that is something I think we have to look carefully at and have to ask why.

答：自从我成立安培林公司(Amblin)，并且提拔我的秘书当制片人开始，就已经在扶植女性电影人了。女性主持的公司让我感觉更舒服。我是从她们的创意能力角度，而不是管理能力角度谈的。我批准梦工厂拍摄的第一部影片是《末日戒备》(The Peacemaker)，导演是咪咪·莱德(Mimi Leder)。全世界的电影业中都有很多女人担任高管——环球影业、二十世纪福克斯的主管都是女人，还有索尼的前主管也是女人。我不明白的是，电影公司的管理层里何以缺乏多样化，缺少不同人种，我们应该仔细研究，问问为什么。

And also director positions. Why do you think that is?

问：还有导演的位置也是这样，你觉得这是为什么？

I think there needs to be an infusion of more women directing and more men and women of color directing.

答：我觉得我们需要让更多女人来当导演，让更多非白人男女来当导演。

How do we do that?

问：我们该怎么做呢？

We do that by continuing to look at movies that everybody is making whether they’re on YouTube or Vine. You have to just be open to it, and you have to search for it. You have to go out to see where the talent is and basically cultivate the talent.

答：我们要做的就是不断地看电影，不管是在YouTube上的还是Vine上的。你需要非常开放，你要去寻找。你要出去寻觅天才，然后培育天才。

You’ve clarified your comments about superhero movies, which you’ve said will have a finite life span compared with westerns. Are there superhero movies you like?

问：你曾经澄清过自己关于超级英雄电影的观点，你说与西部片相比，它们的生命期有限。你有喜欢的超级英雄电影吗？

I wasn’t giving the thumbs down to the genre, ’cause I go to all the movies. My favorite of all the superhero movies are the “Iron Man” movies. I love Tim Burton’s Batman films and then — jump-cut way into the future — everything Chris Nolan has touched in Batman, because of the darkness, of what would motivate a character like that, a very rich character, to do the kind of public service work he does.

答：我并没有贬低这种类型，因为我什么电影都看。我最喜欢的超级英雄电影是《钢铁侠》(Iron Man)系列。我喜欢蒂姆·波顿(Tim Burton)的蝙蝠侠电影，还有——现在未来交叉剪辑的方式——还有克里斯·诺兰(Chris Nolan)在他的蝙蝠侠中体现、运用的，因为里面那种黑暗，是这种黑暗，驱动了富有的主角去做那种公共服务工作。

And “Iron Man” because …

问：你喜欢《钢铁侠》又是因为……

There’s a lot of Joseph Campbell in the “Iron Man” movies. We all want to fly. And we know we can’t fly without wings, except in our dreams. I used to dream about flying in a bodysuit, and when “Iron Man” came along, I went: “They wrote this for me. This is my wish fulfillment.”

答：《钢铁侠》里有很多约瑟夫·坎贝尔(Joseph Campbell)式的东西。我们都想飞翔，我们都知道我们没有翅膀，所以飞不起来，除非是在梦里。我曾经梦见过穿连体衣就飞起来了，《钢铁侠》出来的时候，我想“他们写的就是我，我的梦想成真了。”

With “E.T.” and “Close Encounters of the Third Kind,” you looked out beyond the world. Now you’re mining history.

问：你在《E.T.外星人》(E.T.)和《第三类接触》(Close Encounters of the Third Kind)这样的影片里拍过了外星世界，现在你又开始研究历史。

I always said to myself if I ever achieve a success where I can decide what to do independently, I wanted to tell stories that are meaningful to me about people that did great things.

答： 我总是对自己说，如果我成功到可以独立决定该干什么，我最想做的就是讲述那些对我有意义的伟人故事。

I also have an imagination — if it sits around too long, I get afraid it’s going to become a little jaded, so I fluctuate between stories based on true events and movies that are much more a product of my overactive imagination. Or at least Roald Dahl’s, which is my next movie, “Big Friendly Giant.” With Mark Rylance playing the big friendly giant.

我还有丰富的想象力——如果它被搁置太久，我担心它会变得有点厌倦，所以我有时拍真实事件改编的故事，有时根据我活跃的想象力拍摄影片。至少我也要拍个罗尔德·达尔(Roald Dahl)的小说改编的电影吧，我的下一部影片是《友善的巨人》(Big Friendly Giant)，马克·里朗斯演那个友善的巨人。

I didn’t know it was Mark Rylance as Abel; he was so deep in the character.

问：我都没看出阿贝尔是马克·里朗斯演的，他深深沉浸在角色里面了。

Thanks to “Twelfth Night” and “Richard III” [on Broadway], I was able to get a big dose of Mark Rylance a couple of years ago. He was my first choice. Tom [Hanks] has played American figureheads in the past, and he’s very representative of our core values of what we believe to be great American leadership. This was a special assignment for Tom, because he’s badass in this story. He was dogged in his pursuit of justice.

答：几年前，我在（百老汇的）《第十二夜》(Twelfth Night)和《理查三世》(Richard III)里看了很多马克·里朗斯的表演。他是我的首选。汤姆·汉克斯以前演过很多美国大人物，他非常能代表我们心目中伟大的美国领导力的核心价值。这个角色对于汤姆来说很特别，因为他是这个故事里的坏家伙。在追求正义的过程中，他很固执。

You seem to draw great performances out of people.

问：你似乎很擅长激发演员的演技。

Working with Daniel Day-Lewis brought me up many, many notches. I just dogged Daniel Day-Lewis, and after 10 years he finally said yes to play Abraham Lincoln. It really raised my game. I really believe I did some of my best work on “Lincoln,” principally because of this one actor.

答：和丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯(Daniel Day-Lewis)合作让我提升了很多层次。我一直追着丹尼尔·戴-刘易斯不放，十年后，他终于答应出演亚伯拉罕·林肯。这真的让我更加努力。我真的相信《林肯》差不多是我最好的作品，主要都是因为这个演员。

What is it that he does that caused these new light bulbs to go off?

问：他做了什么事，启发了你的新灵感？

You can’t describe it. I try to go back in time to figure out how did Howard Hawks get that performance out of Montgomery Clift and John Wayne in “Red River”?

答：你没法描述。我试着回到过去，想象霍华德·霍克斯(Howard Hawks)在《红河》(Red River)里是怎么激发蒙哥马利·克里夫特(Montgomery Clift)和约翰·韦恩(John Wayne)的演技的。

I really feel I was well suited to working 70 years ago. I would have been a good workhorse, under contract and assigned stories, and I would have thrived.

我真的觉得，我更适合在70年前工作。有合同，有指派给我的故事，我会兢兢业业地工作，我也会成功的。

I spend more of my time looking at movies from 70, 60 years ago than I do watching movies that are made now. Clint Eastwood and I are very close friends, and we talk about this all the time. He wishes he could go back and experience what it would have been like to have Darryl Zanuck or Harry Cohn or Louis B. Mayer go through a go-between and hand you your assignment, then you read it and say: “You know something? I hate it, but I can fix it.”

我花了大量时间去看六七十年前的电影，比看现在的电影还要多。克林特·伊斯特伍德(Clint Eastwood)是我的好朋友，我们总是聊这个话题。他希望回到过去，体验和达利尔·扎努克(Darryl Zanuck)、哈利·科恩(Harry Cohn)和路易·B·梅尔(Louis B. Mayer)一起工作的感觉，他们通过中介，把下一个任务分给你，然后你看了剧本就说，“你知道吗，我讨厌这个，不过我能拍好它。”